Contemplating Affirmative Action –or– Banging Our Heads Against Bricks…still.
Affirmative Action irritates the crap out of me.
In its purest form, it sounds like a good idea. Take two people of equal intelligence and skill but vastly different backgrounds. Affirmative action (in theory) allows them to compete on equal footing.
If that were really the case, I’d love to see some Affirmative Action in the presidential race. Joe Everyman – an intelligent, productive, thinking member of society who doesn’t have a gazillion dollars in strings-attached funding and isn’t necessarily a Republican OR a Democrat — could actually have a shot at the presidency! Maybe then we wouldn’t have to choose a leader based on the lesser of all evils.
Wouldn’t that be a trip.
Affirmative Action doesn’t level the playing field; it’s oppressive and promotes the segregation it’s supposed to eliminate. Al? Jesse? You boys listening? You’re a part of the problem.
Don’t take my Ugly Ass Opinion for it. Ask yourself the big questions. Put some thought into the country and the world we live in. Knowledge is the first step to change.
Why is it still acceptable to have a Miss Black America pageant but not a Miss White America pageant?
Why is it ok for a scholarship to bypass the most qualified student and go to one with lower scores and a Native American grandparent?
Why is the United Negro College Fund able to single out race when education in this country is supposed to be non-discriminatory? And why do people accept this as ok?
Do you ever wonder about these things?
We don’t need a national Black History Month. We also don’t need a White History Month, a Bi-Racial History month or even a Redneck History month. We need an AMERICAN history month. We’re all in this together, so quit harping on the differences, already.
We can be so much better than this.
This article is an original post from www.UglyAssOpinion.com © Kelly L. Trainor 2008 All Rights Reserved
April 14, 2008 at 12:50 pm
AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!
We live in a country that should have reached some point by now where this nonsense is not needed. Sadly, Affirmative Action becomes nothing but reverse discrimination. Equal Opportunity does plenty fine without it. However, good luck telling those big shots in Washington that.
I agree with you, we need to find ourselves a Joe Everyman or Mary Everywoman to rally behind!
April 14, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Pssst! Preacher! Thanks for the inspiration.
April 14, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Amen!
Very well put! My kids are growing up learning more about black history month in school than they are about the American Revolution! How can they be expected to run our country in 30 years or so if they do not even know how and why this country was formed to begin with!
Please give me an asprin! My head hurts from banging it against the bricks!!
April 14, 2008 at 2:29 pm
I don’t even want to get started on what our kids are learning and not learning! It irritates me too much! But once again, you make me think! I just wanted to let you know that you are an appreciated blogger today! (psst head to my blog!)
April 14, 2008 at 4:11 pm
(Hands a bottle of aspirin to Just a Mom.) Hey thanks!
April 14, 2008 at 9:17 pm
What is the point in even trying to explain all the problems with what you are saying. It is so funny affirmative action will say that out of 5000 jobs 50 have to be minorities (of all colors) and women (of all colors) and all you will see is that 50 jobs went to someone who could be minority. Well did you notice the 4,950 jobs that went to whites? Of course not because that doesn’t matter. A minority might slip through even thought they were just as qualified.
The problem is if people would base hiring practices on the BEST candidate we wouldn’t need a lot of things. Yet they don’t!!! That is the problem. Take a close look at corporate America and you will see companies that are predominantly white. I worked at a top insurance company where their were over 6000 employees and in our office of 1000 there were only 4 blacks and 1 got let go because he made the white ladies in the office nervous. Do you think that there were only 3 of us by accident.
I worked closely with personnel and they always had one excuse after another as to why a black candidate who was best qualified just didn’t quite fit the bill. They were great on paper and great with the phone interview and all set to be hired until they showed their face in the office. It is NOT fair and that is the bottom line.
If you have a better idea on how to get companies to not look at race then I and many others are ALL ears. Yet I guess companies should be able to hire anyone that makes them feel good. So when companies end up ALL white with no minorities then I guess you won’t complain when those minorities are sucking your tax dollars on welfare. Since you can’t have it both ways, either allow them to compete EQUALLY for jobs or just pay them to stay at home where you won’t have to see them.
Also, scholarships have been historically going to white people so in order to ensure that others benefit as well blacks HAD no choice but to step up and do it themselves. You complain when we want in on your gig and you complain when we try and do it for ourselves make up your minds. This goes for Miss America as well. And you obviously don’t look at a lot of history books because looking at my sons book it is riddled with European history. I don’t like the one shortest month either. Why can’t we include ALL of America’s history not just what makes America look good.
Thanks
April 14, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Hi Black Sentinel — thanks for stopping by. You make some excellent points, but I think you misunderstand my position. I fully agree that historically blacks have been mistreated. I also fully agree that blacks are often currently mistreated. As are any minority, be the person female, asian, Hindu or whatever. Affirmative Action was created to level the playing field. It was a good idea and it helped a number of people. Not a large number, but a number.
I just feel that it no longer serves the purpose it was created for.
My point is that we as a people –not ‘we as blacks over here and we as whites over here and we as whatevers over here– we as PEOPLE should be able to chuck Affirmative Action by now. We as PEOPLE should all know better than to keep the same old issues churning.
You are absolutely correct to be irate about companies that appear to be a sea of white faces who refuse to look at qualified candidates of another race. Pisses me off, too. We should be beyond all that by now.
I didn’t say I had the answer. If I did, it would have been a far different post!
I’m saying we all need to change and should have done so by now. From where I sit, Affirmative Action doesn’t lend itself to understanding and tolerance between the races, it just seems to deepen the gaps we all need to smooth over.
I thank you for taking the time to voice your opinion. Just wanted to clarify mine as well. Have a great evening!
April 15, 2008 at 9:07 am
K.,
I agree that we SHOULD be beyond affirmative action. But my position is that the problem still exists like we are agreed upon. So if the problem exists and we end affirmative action which is ill equipped to do the job it should WHERE will minorities be then? That is my problem. I understand you don’t have that answer, that was rhetorical.
But we don’t say that laws making murder illegal have NOT worked so lets chuck them. It wouldn’t help if we did. So why chuck a law just because it isn’t working as well as we would like. If we had something to replace it with or a way to ensure that this racism doesn’t continue then by all means let affirmative action hit the garbage can.
While one race dominates everything in the country we will NOT have equality. So we are doomed to continue this revolving door of racism while people who are in power have ALL the power and those on the bottom have no means of ensuring fair treatment. Not to mention we could probably solve all our woes if we could get people to see everyone as equals.
Thanks
April 15, 2008 at 10:08 am
There are no easy answers. Actually, at this point there are no answers period, which makes this such a frustrating issue, all the way around. I still respectfully disagree with you on Affirmative Action. I believe it does more harm than good at this point.
–But– I understand the point you’re making that we have nothing to replace it with; and to toss it out the window without a cultural change would cause more damage than keeping it in place for now. In my mind it’s sort of like allowing an infection to fester because we’d rather not cut off the limb. Both prospects are unappealing and none-too-healthy. Sure wish we could find some antibiotics instead.
We do agree on another point you made–forgot to mention it in my last response. Our textbooks ARE disturbingly one sided. They skim over (or completely leave out) a tremendous amount of American History that puts white America in a poor light. Little or nothing is said about what was done to the American Indians, the slave trade and mistreatment other immigrants; past and present. (We’ve conveniently forgotten that we were immigrants, too. Hostile and unwanted ones, at that.)
And yet my daughter has a whole chapter devoted to Roman Mythology–ALL of which is pure fiction. Ugh!
Thank you for your insight, Black Sentinel. I appreciate opinions, and you’ve put a lot of time and effort into offering yours. No doubt you have a busy life beyond commenting on blogs! I don’t expect readers to always agree with me; I’m not everybody’s cup of koolaid.
It’s the communication that matters.
April 23, 2008 at 9:17 am
[...] The Miss Black America Pageant “Why is it still acceptable to have a Miss Black America pageant but not a Miss White America pageant?” – Kelly Trainer [...]
April 24, 2008 at 12:05 am
Interesting. So you are trying to say that you wish America was a perfect place and it bothers you that we still have a long ways to go?
If that is your point why are you only harping on one side of the fence? Why aren’t you also complaining about the continued stereotypes and discrimination that is an ongoing reality today? I agree that Affirmative Action (at this point) simply fosters and attitude of resentment and superiority by whites towards minorities.
The reason why there is funding specifically for blacks is because the vast majority of blacks do not the privilege of wealth in their families. Why? Because they spent 250+ years as slaves so that white slave owners could build wealth for themselves and their children and their children’s children. For another 100 years blacks had no rights and barely considered human. So, it has only been 40 years since blacks have had any human rights in this country whereby they can obtain a decent education and begin the build wealth for themselves and their children and their children’s children.
Now do the math. That’s a 350 year head start that’s whites have over blacks. That’s 350 years more that whites have had to establish businesses, land and investments. THIS is the reason why there is such a socio-economic disparity between whites and blacks. THIS is why blacks continue to have organizations to aid in our prosperity. We are WAY behind the curve ball and need to muster up as much community as we can in order to make up for 350 years lost.
Can that 350 years lost ever be made up for? On a regular basis the country is reminded how much more whites have attained than blacks. Blacks are constantly made to feel inferior and incapable due to statistics that paint an incomplete picture.
When the majority no longer holds a superiority complex and no longer holds on to prejudices and stereotypes and actually treat all people as their peers then the silos will come tumbling down. I look forward to that day.
April 24, 2008 at 7:33 am
You know 27th floor, I didn’t think I WAS harping on one side of the fence. But now as I re-read my original post, I see your point. It does come across as more one-sided than was intended. I know my own mind, but obviously the words on the screen are all that others can see. I need to put some thought into another post. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. You too, Black Sentinel.
Just so we’re all clear, this post wasn’t aimed at Affirmative Action benefits for any particular minority. I think America’s difficulties in this area Percentage-wise are mainly the hostilities between whites and blacks, but honestly I had other groups of people in mind as well. I just pulled the examples I used off the top of my head.
Thank you for your comments, 27th floor. I, too look forward to the day when we all treat each other as peers.
April 25, 2008 at 8:15 am
Hi Kelly,
I appreciate the clarification on your position. Like others, I have to admit that your initial argument sounds very one sided. I got the impression that you blame the black community for having separate institutions without mentioning why or what happened to create these separate organizations. You have said that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are part of the problem and not the cure. But so are the heads of state and other government representatives that look the other way when the black community that is in obvious need of some kind of help. So are the captains of industry who continue to head organizations whose payroll reflects the unequal distribution of so much wealth and capital to the white community while the number of employees who take their compensation back to the black community amount to a comparatively pitiful handful if there are any at all. Pat Buchanan is part of the problem when he says black people need to get on their knees and thank the white community for our condition. Bill O’Reilly is part of the problem when he visits a black restaurant and goes on air to say how surprised he is that there weren’t any black person shouting for their ‘F’ing tea.
I don’t know too many people who celebrate affirmative action. But what else can we do when there are so many people who are so willing to keep black people out of their place of employment, out of their neighborhoods, and out of their schools. How can a company in a city with blacks making twenty percent of the population have only a handful of black employees among hundreds? Affirmative action is not a perfect solution. But what else can be done to correct a situation of an institution makes it so painfully obvious that it prefers to keep black people out of its general population? People like to think racial discrimination is a thing of the past. However, it is very much alive and it is kicking awfully hard. And a company that benefits from being part of the American social fabric does not have the right to discriminate against any part of the social structure.
The black institutions that have developed as a response to discrimination are not intended to be a problem. These organizations are responding to a need that fails to catch the attention of the majority of the population. If we want to make Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton unnecessary we need to make sure that we all are part of the solution to make racial discrimination a thing of our collective past instead of saying it’s only a problem for the black community. We shouldn’t have to wait until Mr. Sharpton or Mr. Jackson to show up on the scene before we say anything. But somehow we always do. Somehow, on a daily basis, the general population fails to get involved when we see racial disparity.
Personally, I would love to put Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton out of their business that allows them to take advantage of black people who have been taken advantage of. It is inevitable when high profile cases of racial disparity occur, one of these two gentlemen is going to make an appearance. Who died and left them the boss of racial issues? But on the flipside, if someone who is close to me is gunned down in a back alley because some police officer is a little too enthusiastic to arrest a black suspect and targets the wrong person like they did with Amadou Diallo who was gunned down for identifying himself or like when the police was in a rush to kill Sean Bell on his wedding day, if another black person is beaten then arrested on bogus charges like Robert Davis in the early days after Katrina, if I am ever arrested and then sodomized with a broom handle while in police custody like Abner Louima, I sincerely hope Mr. Jackson or Mr. Sharpton or someone who will not be afraid to be just as vocal and/or just as controversial will come to my rescue.
If I ever got in trouble it is a sure bet that few other people would care to make any effort to learn the details of my predicament. Without even knowing me so many people would be quick to dismiss my plight as just another black malfeasant that got what he deserved even though I have never been in trouble with the law other than an occasional traffic ticket. While you may have the resources to hire a lawyer or you have family members in a position to help you when you are in trouble, I, like many people in the black community, don’t have that luxury. We are barely able to keep our heads above water on a good day. All I could hope for is to get a public defendant that would take an interest in actually helping me instead of trying to convince me to cop a plea out of his or her convenience. Our justice system is billed as one of the fairest in the world, but it is anything but fair.
If I may ask, what have you done to make racial discrimination a thing of the past other than call for the abolishment of black beauty pageants or question the appropriateness of the United Negro College Fund or call for college scholarships to be administered strictly by the best test scores? While these and other entities and processes may appear totally unfair and inappropriate to you they are a lifeline for a lot of black people. The black organizations that you question focus on the black community because not too many people are willing to do so. It doesn’t take a color word to appear in an organization’s title in order for it to be racist. The Ku Klux Klan doesn’t have the word white in its name. Nor does the Nazi Party or the Aryan Nation has the word white. And just because an organization has the word black or Negro doesn’t mean it is racist.
Do you support black writers? How often do you support black actors other than the wildly successful actors and actresses on the scale of Denzel Washington or Will Smith? Better yet, how many films do you support that has a predominantly black cast? When was the last time you coincidentally helped a black person get into college or helped a black person get into a job or helped black people who were hungry or helped black people who were unjustly being prosecuted? When was the last time you took the time to read a book where the main character or characters just so happened to be black? When was the last time you paid a visit to an art exhibit from a black person? Do you coincidentally patronize any black businesses or business people?
Black organization and associations are not about keeping something from or taking something away from the white community. We are merely trying to participate in a social environment that is stacked so heavily against us. We are constantly told that if we want a piece of the economic prosperity, we need to lift ourselves up by our boot strap because no one owes us anything. And yet, when black people do come together to pool their resources in order to make something good, somehow we are now the ones being discriminatory and unfair and unwilling to share what we have with others when nothing could be further from the truth. Black people don’t want to deny anything from people in the white community. We simply want to be able to pull up a chair and have a seat at the same table of bounty that you do. We have no choice but to coexist. We should be able to do it together supporting each other.
Peace
April 25, 2008 at 10:00 am
First of all, Brother Peacemaker, I thank you for taking the time to explain your position so eloquently. You could easily have fired off, “she’s an idiot–ignore her” as is so common on the internet. Instead, you chose to state your position with passion and with class. That speaks volumes about the kind of person you are. And no, I’m not just blowing smoke up your ass. I hope you take the genuine compliment in the manner it was given.
You (and other responders) have given me much to think about. Its clear to me that my ‘mental picture’ if you will of life from your shoes was a very small piece of the picture. As is your mental picture of mine. Understandably, since we’ve never walked in each other’s shoes. I’m under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that I’m seen as a middle class white person living in a white community who is grumbling about the black community while tossing it a bone. (I apologize if that’s an incorrect statement–that’s just the vibe I’m getting overall from this post’s discussion.) If that is the consensus, it’s incorrect.
Yes, I live in a predominantly white community. I came here for a job that vaporized months after my arrival. At the time, the job was my concern, not the color of the faces walking by me in the supermarket. Once it was gone, I had no money for relocation, so here I stayed.
The community I live in is not the middle class suburbs. It’s a bunch of families surviving on minimum wage in a rural area with heads barely above water. Mine included. I know you can understand how that feels. You’re right, I don’t visit black art exhibits –I don’t visit any art exhibits. There are other things that are more important–like groceries and electricity. I work online now, (not on this site), so internet is a necessity for my family’s survival, not a luxury.
I’ve never helped a black person get into college, true–I can’t help my own kids get into college. I don’t patronize black businesses because I shop locally and there are none. On the rare occasion that I buy online, I don’t ask what color a vendor is. What a rude and impertinant question that would be.
Does that make me an inconsiderate person? I support Feed the Children, Food for the Poor and a place called Covenant House that helps homeless kids in Detroit. I don’t send much because I don’t have much to send–but every month I share what I can. Do these organizations serve predominantly black children? I have no idea. It’s never mattered to me. They serve children, that’s good enough for me.
I don’t mean to sound defensive, but I suppose I am just a little. I feel as though judgements are being made about me just as you feel judgements are made about you. I suppose there are those who would think that’s great–time for the white person to squirm. I don’t understand why its necessary for ANY of us to squirm. We’re all just people living in the same trying times.
I took a simple post grumbling about the fact that one program causes more harm than good (side note: More harm than good At This Point. I believe at it’s inception Aff.Act. was the necessary and right move.) Anyway, from that simple grumble it seems that I’ve upset people because I didn’t paint a full picture about racism in America. Volumes could be devoted to doing that task!
You’re right, my examples should have been more thoughtfully chosen, rather than grabbed off the top of my head. Bill O’Reilly IS a part of the problem. Pat Robertson is a part of the problem. As are many other high profile (and low profile) white people. (Pat Buchanan is just a complete idiot all the way around if you ask me.) My examples didn’t paint a balanced picture, as you’ve brought to my attention. For that I apologize and am simmering a different post at the moment.
You’re right, there is more I can do. There is more we can all do, don’t you think?
Respectfully,
Kelly
April 25, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Hi Kelly,
I wandered over here from brotherpeacemaker’s blog. I empathize with and am trying to understand personally a lot of what you are saying in the main post, and in your comments in the thread.
There’s a question I would ask you and those who are sympathetic to the thoughts you offer here. But first let me offer the basis in my perspective, and then I’ll get to the question.
It seems to me that among Black Americans, there are a group who have spent a good bit of their thinking and working lives trying to integrate themselves successfully into American society, to not see themselves as Black Americans but instead as Americans. Stated differently, they have tried to break down the Black vs White barrier by focusing only on the “American” part. It strikes me that Barack Obama and his many Black supporters come from this perspective, and want to further advance this perspective.
My difficulty with that sort of approach is pretty basic — it seeks to resolve a problem by ignoring the problem. One can try to integrate as a colorless “American” but that will not solve the problem of festering racism in America. The racism continues to fester below the surface — as any Black person will tell you, regardless of his/her success in business or politics, or in social/economic terms. Hurricane Katrina is a shining example. The result of the Florida vote count in 2000 is a shining example.
As I see things, Barack Obama’s candidacy is nothing more than a mask put over that fact of continued latent racism, and many Black Americans are falling for the disguise provided by that mask, rather than examining what sits behind the mask.
On that background, my question is the following.
Can there be any true integration, any true erosion or corrosion of American anti-Black racism, by avoiding the problem of continued racism?
April 25, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Kelly,
Excellent point. We both make assumptions. And by no means am I asking you to take a survey of the businesses you visit. I was trying to make a point about how often people from the white community patronize black businesses. You mentioned your visit to the grocery store and your electricity. It is a fair bet that the grocery store isn’t a minority business and the same holds true for the electric company. I do a lot of buying online as well and it is a no brainer that Amazon.com and Overstock.com and TigerDirect.com are not black businesses. The grocery store I visit is not black owned.
I was trying to make a point that we are a much smaller community without the resources that the white community has. Many people in the black community support the bigger and better financed businesses in the white community simply because we don’t have a choice. This is not to say that all white people do. I will apologize for I made the assumption that you were in a better financial position. If I made you feel defensive I apologize as well. But racial disparity is an issue that I am especially sensitive to. Lord knows I don’t need to initiate an argument. The net is full of them.
Peace
April 25, 2008 at 10:08 pm
That’s a good point, Micah. I guess my thoughts would tend to go with the group ‘focusing on the American part’ mainly because it’s the only feasible road to change that I can see. What I mean is, even though ideally we should all be able to celebrate our differences as well as our similarities, and live together without any racism–that won’t happen without a monumental cultural shift. I don’t see how to get from our current place to the aforementioned ideal place without some sort of bridge.
To me, the focus on our similarities as Americans is at least a start toward a viable bridge. I don’t know of a better one. It’s by no means a complete solution, but perhaps a step in the right direction. Is it ignoring the problem of racism or an attempt to move past it? I guess it depends on individual perspective. You pose a good question!
Brother Peacemaker, no worries. You have every right to state your opinion, particularly on issues close to your heart. There is no argument here, this is a civilized discussion.
April 26, 2008 at 8:16 am
I guess I am having a problem with the post and comments. The one thing that has not been mentioned once is, HOW Affirmative Action is oppressive and promotes racial segregation? Also, you said it helps “THEM” compete on equal footing. When Aff. Act. actually is utilized most by white women. So how does that “THEM” not include you or any of your other commenter’s who are or could be white females?
Thanks
April 26, 2008 at 10:56 am
Hi Sentinel,
I’ll address your questions in reverse, if you don’t mind. My original comment, “Take two people of equal intelligence and skill but vastly different backgrounds. Affirmative action (in theory) allows them to compete on equal footing.” *Them* refers to the two people in my example; who could be white women, asian men, american indian teens or any number of people from differing backgrounds.
As to how AA keeps people apart, let me give an example of what I mean. Let’s say a factory owner has a line position open on a rather dangerous machine. Two men apply for the job. One of them has worked on such a machine before, for several years at a competitor’s factory. The other has worked on factory lines for several years, but never on this particular machine. The second person has only one arm.
The business owner might choose to hire the first man. He has more experience with the equipment, and in the event of an emergency, this person has a physically superior ability to manipulate the safety controls involved with stopping the machine. This is safer not only for the line worker hired, but also others working in the vicinity. It’s a wiser business decision.
Now as I understand it, (by all means, someone please correct me if I’m wrong), if person #1 is hired and person #2 decides it’s discriminatory, person #2 can enlist the help of an AA attorney and sue the business owner. At that point, the business owner’s livelihood and reputation are in jeopardy for making a logical business decision involving the safety of the workers.
To me, that’s not right.
Now add skin color that that example. Make person #1 white and person #2 black. (Still with a single arm.) It’s still not right.
If the business owner feels coerced to hire a handicapped person (white, black, red or purple with blue stripes) due to the threat involved with AA, he’s going to have negative feelings about AA. He’s going to grumble about it to his family, his friends and his colleagues. And they’re going to talk to their families and friends and colleagues with, “Did you hear what happened….?”
Over time, handicapped people are seen as ‘the enemy.’ They’re seen as ‘forced upon’ business owners who feel obligated to hire less qualified handicapped people in situations like the one above out of fear of retribution. That puts handicapped people at a distinct social disadvantage because they have little or no chance of making an impression based on their skills and personality. They’ve been wrongfully pre-judged rather than arriving on their own terms.
In my opinion, today’s AA plants seeds. Seeds of doubt, seeds of mistrust. Underlying threats of, “if you don’t hire [insert minority here], you can be publicly painted as discriminatory and lose everything you have. Seeds have a habit of growing, from one generation to the next.
–That’s what I meant previously about AA deepening the wedge that’s better off being removed.
As I stated before, I don’t have a better solution than AA. And left to their own devices, the majority of people AREN’T evolved enough to see everyone as equals and hire / promote / patronize businesses / befriend / marry on that basis of equality.
That’s why AA is still here, festering mistrust of minorities just below the surface.
The blog post was never about having an answer. It was about lamenting the fact that we’re still stuck in a bog of our own making. And when I say “our” in THAT sentence, I’m refering 99% to the white majority, Sentinel. White people started this problem a long, long time ago. A vast majority of the white community perpetuate the problem today by teaching their children to hate, rather than look for a different path. I’m not proud of that fact, but it is indeed fact. The other 1% refers to those in minority groups of all kinds who ALSO choose to teach their their children to hate. There is responsibility there, also.
IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION:
I started this comment addressing Sentinel because I was answering two questions he asked. However, I am NOT referring to Sentinel or any other poster here with my comments about teaching children to hate. These types of people exist in both majority and minority groups. We all know it. But I do NOT suggest than anyone here is one of those people. I don’t teach my kids to hate, and I presume no one else posting thus far does, either. If they did, they wouldn’t care enough about the issue to be commenting here at all.
Respectfully,
Kelly
April 26, 2008 at 11:36 am
Whoops–I got so long winded I lost my own train of thought–sorry.
I meant to leave other examples to the ‘factory’ scenario.
Two men apply, dangerous position, #1 has experience on that specific machine, #2 has only factory experience. Now adding to the above, remove all physical limitations from the example. Both men are physically compatible. What if…
–Man #1 was white and Man #2 was black? Should the less qualified individual be hired based on skin color alone? If the answer is no, does anything change anything if the business owner is black?
Obviously these are very broad examples. There are numerous factors not included here that would factor into the owner’s hiring decision. (Is Man #1 a pain in the ass and #2 a nicer person? Does man #1 have snotty entitlement issues and Man #2 a glowing references about being a strong worker? Tons and tons of factors.) But it’s something to think about.
April 27, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Kelly,
By your own statement AA is between two people on EQUAL footing, not two wildly unequal people as you are stating in all your scenarios. When in fact this is not at all how affirmative action works. In fact the majority of people who don’t get the job for whatever reason NEVER file, seek to file or even contemplate filing any case with AA lawyers and this is according to the Affirmative Action information page.
Also, why does this factory owner ASSUME that man #2 is going to file a lawsuit? Does he have some history of being discriminatory behavior? What would be the point of the factory owner putting a blatantly unqualified man on the machine? So he can be hurt? It makes no sense, he now has an OSHA problem, so he will definitely be fined after the man loses his other arm.
If this is why you are down on AA then you really need to look into it a bit more before blasting its accomplishments or lack there of. Affirmative action is basically a tool that says in a situation when their is a minority of any type this INCLUDES white women, that they give each totally equal consideration free of any bias. It does NOT state that they HAVE to go with the minority.
That is the fallacy that people who know little about the suggestion of AA. Yes AA is a list of suggestions for businesses to follow in order to fairly represent ALL people in the hiring practices. It is NOT a law or a set of laws. There is nothing that says that people can sue if they don’t get a job. In fact the requirements to sue a person for discrimination are so high that most never make it past the legal pleadings stage and thus lawsuit is dismissed.
April 28, 2008 at 4:27 am
[...] Now as I understand it, (by all means, someone please correct me if I’m wrong), if person #1 is hired and person #2 decides it’s discriminatory, person #2 can enlist the help of an AA attorney and sue the business owner. At that point, the business owner’s livelihood and reputation are in jeopardy for making a logical business decision involving the safety of the workers.” - Kelly Trainer [...]
April 28, 2008 at 6:39 am
Sentinel: The comment you’re referring to, “Take two people of equal intelligence and skill but vastly different backgrounds. Affirmative action (in theory) allows them to compete on equal footing.” clearly states both individuals are from vastly different backgrounds and that AA should in theory allow them to COMPETE on equal footing. It does not say the two were on equal footing to begin with.
Thanks.
April 28, 2008 at 8:07 am
What exactly does “vastly different backgrounds” mean? I come from a vastly different background than say a person from India, but if we are going up for the same tech job, all one needs to do is look at our education and experience. Is that equal? We don’t hire people based on their backgrounds unless I have missed something. I have never been asked by an employer, “so have you ever lived in Bangladesh?” How would that be pertinent unless I was going to have to travel their or be relocated their?
Also, what makes you think that they are not on equal footing? Why is there always this severely unqualified person with you? Normally most employers find candidates that all have pretty much the SAME qualifications. They usually differ only by small degrees such as length on job, amount of experience and so forth. I have never seen an employer bring in a person who is certified to do a specific job then bring in some guy who has never even seen the job specifications before.
AA does NOT allow or disallow anyone to do anything. AA is just a guideline for FAIR hiring practices. That means that it is a guide to follow just like using corner. It is suggested that people cross at the corner, yet people cross from the middle of the street and unless they get run over there is very little in the way of backlash. AA is the same way. You have a skewed view of what AA is and what it can or can’t do.
Thanks
April 28, 2008 at 8:30 am
Sentinel, I’m not going to split hairs on my statements anymore. I believe that you vehemently disagree with me on this issue which you certainly have every right to do. I do appreciate your comments as I think this is an important issue and all points of view should be considered. There are a vast number of people from all walks of life with differing opinions on AA–my opinion is only one.
At this point it seems to me that we’re going round and round and getting nowhere. You have your opinions and I have mine. I think on this one we just have to agree to disagree.
Respectfully,
Kelly
April 29, 2008 at 5:49 am
[...] The Most Qualified Students “Why is it ok for a scholarship to bypass the most qualified student and go to one with lower scores and a Native American grandparent?” – Kelly Trainer [...]
May 2, 2008 at 5:31 am
[...] Black History Isn’t American History “My kids are growing up learning more about black history month in school than they are about the American Revolution! How can they be expected to run our country in 30 years or so if they do not even know how and why this country was formed to begin with! Please give me an [aspirin]! My head hurts from banging it against the bricks!!” – Just a Mom [...]
May 7, 2008 at 7:28 am
[...] A Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Waste “Why is the United Negro College Fund able to single out race when education in this country is supposed to be non-discriminatory? And why do people accept this as ok?” – Kelly Train [...]